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Amidst the rhetoric concerning comet Elenin is the idea that the rapture will coincide with her arrival this fall. I have read many such claims at many places on the net that align certain spiritual occurrences with her arrival and thus conclude the rapture may occur during these times. Will the rapture happen this fall? NO
How do I know because of what God's word tells us. First let's briefly describe what happens at the rapture; Christ comes to the clouds for all the world to see, Christians are raptured and then men panic. Anywhere in Revelation that you find a scenario like that? How about Revelation 6.
15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
So Jesus appears, and everybody hides, and then God's wrath starts. That is a description of the rapture and it happens after the 6th seal is opened.
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
So if the rapture happens after the sixth seal is opened then we have to see seal 1 to 5 before the rapture can occur. Seal 5 is the worldwide persecution of Jews and Christians by the antichrist, which includes no buying or selling without the mark. That will not happen until after the abomination of desolation. We are not at that point yet so therefore the rapture cannot occur yet.
Want some confirmation? Look at what God told the Thessalonians who were afraid that the rapture was at hand or that they had missed it;
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
It plainly states that the day of the Lord and the rapture will not come until the falling away occurs, and the antichrist performs the abomination of desolation. So in light of scripture it is too early in the prophetic timeline for the rapture. After we see the antichrist arise and the abomination of desolation, then look up for your redemption draweth nigh!
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Whoa! I was already thinking about dropping your blog from my reader, but after you hatch a theological egg like the one above, it's clear that time has come.
ReplyDeleteLook at the passage you quoted: you stopped at verse 4, without invoking the surrounding context or the rest of the passage in 2 Thess. Keep reading:
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
That's pretty clear on the order of events: the restrainer (He) is taken out of the way. That is the body of Christ indwelled by the Holy Ghost -- the church!
Furthermore, the mark of the beast doesn't come until Rev. 13, not in 5. You're out and out misquoting scripture.
And yes, the day of the Lord does begin with the sun black/moon red/earthquake in Rev. 6 -- but what does Paul also say? It will come as a thief in the night. Who else does that describe?
More importantly, as your brother in Christ, I would exhort you to study to show yourself approved (2 Tim. 2:15) - ESPECIALLY if you're going to be a "guiding light" -- Christ is the Light, not you! -- and author a blog commenting on end-times prophecy.
He's coming very soon; will you be ashamed at His coming? Maranatha!
Ian
Ian
ReplyDeleteYou wrote "And yes, the day of the Lord does begin with the sun black/moon red/earthquake in Rev. 6 -- but what does Paul also say? It will come as a thief in the night. Who else does that describe?" So you admit that the rapture occurs at the day of the Lord which is at the sixth seal. That is great. I am glad that you can see that truth.
The mark of the beast comes about after the antichrist comes to power--it is part of the war against Jews and Christians
As far as the restrainer
"Identifying the Restrainer
Yet another argument put forth by pre-trib adherents is that they say that the Holy Spirit is removed before the antichrist is revealed; and since the Holy Spirit indwells Christians, they will be removed also. They draw this conclusion from 2 Thessalonians 2:6¬–7: “And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.” They have made the assumption that it is the Holy Spirit who is the restrainer and that when He is removed—and Christians with Him—the antichrist will be revealed.
This is an incorrect assumption, for the Holy Spirit is recorded as still being on the earth indwelling believers during the last days of the 70th Week. This is clearly evident in Joel 2:
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. (Joel 2:28–31)
To those of you that think the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, I would like for you to ponder a couple of questions. How can the Holy Spirit still be on earth during the 70th Week if the verse says the restrainer (Holy Spirit) is removed? And if He is removed, will He leave and come back? One individual told me that the Holy Spirit is not really removed, but just His restraining power; and after His restraining power is removed, that is when the rapture occurs and the Holy Spirit reverts back to His Old Testament mode. In responding to this, I would like to call your attention to Acts 2:16–21:
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
After Pentecost, the apostles were indwelt with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in foreign languages. Peter likened this to what the prophet Joel said would happen during the 70th Week. Therefore, Peter establishes the fact that believers will be indwelt with the Holy Spirit during the 70th Week in the same way that they were after Pentecost.
Thus, we can conclude that the Holy Spirit will be on the earth during the 70th Week and will indwell believers in the same way that the apostles were indwelt. In fact, the scripture passages above indicate that not only will the Holy Spirit be here and indwell believers, but He will manifest His power in a greater way than He is being manifested today, working signs, wonders, and miracles through believers.
ReplyDeleteSo who is the restrainer that is removed before the antichrist is revealed? I suggest that the restrainer is the Archangel Michael. Consider these two passages:
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (Rev. 12:7–14)
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time. (Dan. 12:1)
After the war in heaven, satan will be thrown down to earth and will indwell the antichrist and begin persecuting the saints during the great tribulation. This is when the restraining power of Michael the archangel will be removed. Marvin Rosenthal describes it like this:
Speaking of the one who will hinder the antichrist, Paul said, “only he who now hindereth will continue to hinder until he be taken out of the way” (2 Thess. 2:7). The word hindereth means to hold down, and the phrase taken out of the way means to step aside. Therefore, the one who had the job of hindering the antichrist will step aside; that is, he will no longer be a restraint between the antichrist and those the antichrist is persecuting.
. . . Further, Daniel has already said that Michael will stand up during “a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time.” The unprecedented time of trouble can only refer to the Great Tribulation. Since Daniel is told that this great trouble relates to his people—and his people are the Jews—this can only be “the time of Jacob’s Trouble” (Jer. 30:7), which is a synonym for the Great Tribulation. It is at that time that the archangel Michael will stand up.
But what does the Hebrew word for stand up (amad) mean? Rashi, one of Israel’s greatest scholars . . . understood stand up to literally mean [to] stand still. The meaning, according to one of Israel’s greatest scholars, would be to stand aside or be inactive. Michael, the guardian of Israel, had earlier fought for her (Dan. 10:13, 21), but now this one “who standeth for the children of thy people” would stand still or stand aside. He would not help; he would not restrain; he would not hold down.
ReplyDeleteThe Midrash, commenting on this verse, says, “The Holy One, Blessed be He, said to Michael, ‘You are silent? You do not defend my children.’”
So when “the restrainer” Michael removes his restraining power, then the antichrist will be revealed and the great tribulation will begin. The great tribulation and rule of the antichrist begins after the Abomination of Desolation. Thus, 2 Thessalonians 2:6–7 does not support a pre-trib rapture, but shows that the rapture will occur after the great tribulation.
The Coming Epiphany
"the rapture will occur after the great tribulation.". So, are you post-trib? Do you believe we are raptured after the great tribulation? If so, what is the general time period between post-trib rapture and then Jesus' return?
ReplyDeleteAnon
ReplyDeleteI am not post-trib, I am pre wrath. There are 3 distict time periods during the 70th week. Tribulation: seal 1-4, Great tribulation: seal 5, and the Day of the Lord: seal 6 through bowl 7. The rapture occurs after the 6th seal is opened and before God's wrath is poured out. The scriptural evidence for this belief is presented in The Coming Epiphany.
William...thank you for your answer. I am just a regular watcher, and have gone from pre-trib to pre-wrath back to pre-trib...and not so sure about either right now. But I will keep watchning.
ReplyDeleteI prayed for your Dad and will continue to do so.
Jeremiah 16:19
ReplyDeleteO LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
Anon
ReplyDeleteTHX for your prayers. Curious, what is causing you to doubt the pre-wrath view?
William, have just heard scripture reinforcing pretrib. Most recently from the pastor at Cavalry in kaneohe, Hawaii. Though he is just one of many.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgjZ5bHBek8
At this point, again, I am not sure. It is what it will be, and whether it is pretrib or prewrath, I will trust in the Lord. And I think as Steve Coerper says on his blogtalk radio show, I think we will soon see events that will make it very clear (I'm paraphrasing him).
Thanks for your blog. Anon.
Anon
ReplyDeleteI will give the vid a view. Yes there are scriptures that reinforce pretrib, midtrib, posttrib, and prewrath. The key is to evaluate each view against all essential end times truths. The view that does not contradict any end times truth is the correct view. In The Coming Epiphany, which you can download for free, I have done such a comparison and I also present a formal proof, that has never been disproven, that proves the prewrath view.
Ian said "And yes, the day of the Lord does begin with the sun black/moon red/earthquake in Rev. 6 -- but what does Paul also say? It will come as a thief in the night. Who else does that describe?
ReplyDeleteAccording to I Thessalonians 5:2-6 the Lord will come as a "thief in the night" to UNBELIEVERS not to believers! "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. BUT YE, BRETHREN, ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, THAT THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."
I was taught as a child that Jesus was coming as a thief in the night (in fact, in high school they even showed us the film) - unfortunately they didn't include the REST of the verses that clearly state that this is describing how He will come to lost people NOT Christians. Christ clearly gives us warning and signs of His coming and we are to be watching and waiting for those signs.
I'm a Pre-Wrath believer (since 1999) - rather than argue with Pre-Trib believers I just simply say, "God always promised us that we would never see His wrath, but He NEVER promised us we would never see Satan's. What ever you believe -about the rapture-, just be ready to DIE for your faith!"
Just a comment - Isn't it peculiar that we 21st century Christians (especially Americans) think that we are so 'special' that God will spare us persecution (unto death) - I guess the first disciples (that all but possibly one were martyred) weren't quite as special as us.......
Wow William, this has been one of the more controversial blogs! Alot of responses!
ReplyDeleteLet me give a word of caution - just as it is arrogant and unproductive to claim to know the day and the hour as Harold Camping did, do not make yourself out to be a false prophet by equally asserting that you know that of a certainty it will NOT be a certain day or at a certain time, as you blogged "Will the rapture happen this fall? NO" In so doing, it could cause some to be unprepared and I would not want to bear responsibility for that.
I also have wandered inbetween pre-wrath and pre-trib. I was pre-trib for a very long time, and only recently started thinking more along the lines of pre-wrath. I am probably wandering more towards the pre-trib camp again.
Like you, I do see the rapture likely happening at the sixth seal. I see the events in the sixth seal as perhaps being fulfilled at the coming of elenin or something similar.
Like you I always assumed that we would see the events of the first 5 seals fulfilled prior to the sixth seal, but that may be an incorrect assumption - let me give another possibility, and it is only a possibility to consider.
In reading Revelation5&6 again, it occurs to me that perhaps the first 5 seals have already been broken or at the least could have been broken without our awareness - here is my reasoning.
In seals 1-5, the elements of the vision are spiritual or symbolic, while seal six is the first seal with material, earthly, observable elements.
I am not trying to say these things aren't literal, so let me clarify: In seals 1-4 we see horsemen with thier corresponding plagues/judgements. While John sees the white horse in heaven, it is spiritual we do not see the white horse, we see the material thing it represents - the Antichrist. Did John not also write in 1 John 2:18 Little children it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now there are many antichrists; whereby we know it is the last time.
(CONTINUED)
Maybe that first seal has already been opened and is not fully culminated, if we picture the breaking of the seal as the planting of a seed rather than the harvest of a plant. Perhaps the seal was broken in the days of the disciples right after the crucifixion when the Lion of Judah, the Root of David prevailed (Rev 5:5) when else would He have prevailed?
ReplyDeleteLikewise seals 2-4 John sees the red horse, we see war, small at first, waxing greater in the last days. John sees the black horse, we see famine - there have always been famines, but if the seal has been opened and the seed planted, it will culminate in the last days in a measure of wheat for a denarias when the plant is ready for harvest. John sees the pale horse, we see the effects of the pale horse, which will wax greater with time.
On to the 5th seal, which you say is the persecution of Jews and Christians, this could fit, but does the Bible say this? No, the Bible simply says these are the souls under the altar, invisible to you and me, and while it could represent tribulation persecution, since unseen, and not specifically denoted as such, these could just be the souls of those who have been killed and persecuted since the times of the romans until now crying out. Read it again, more likely in context the souls crying out in verse 9&10 are slain prior to tribulation, and the bretheren in verse 11 are those slain in the tribulation.
Seals 1-5 could have been opened over the years while men of the earth slept and slumbered - but the wake up call is seal 6, while seals 1-5 talk about horsemen and souls which cannot be seen with the physical eye, seal 6 talks about 1. earthquake 2. sun 3. moon 4. stars 5. heaven(sky) 6. mountain 7.islands 8.kings 9.great men 10. rich men 11. chief captains 12. mighty men 13. bondmen 14. free men 15.dens 16. rocks 17. mountains.
So the 6th seal describes 17 physical literal things as if to tell us that this may be the first seal that will be very obvious when it is opened and cannot be hidden.
Perhaps the rapture will occur at the opening of this seal, perhaps not. Perhaps it will be this fall, perhaps not - we should all be ready either way.
Maranatha
Remnant Navi
Elena
ReplyDeleteTHX for your additional insights. I have also told many people that surely God will rapture us before He pours out His wrath. And you and I know when His wrath starts.
Remant Navi
I have been confronted with the theory that the 70th week starts with the opening of the sixth seal on many occasions. That theory places the rapture before the abomination of desolation, that we know occurs near the midpoint of the 70th week. However scripture clearly tells us that the Day of the Lord, whose first event is the rapture, occurs after the abomination of desolation.
1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thes 2
So that theory that the 70th week starts with the sixth seal and rapture sets up a contradiction and thus cannot be true. And since the rapture cannot occur until after the abomination of desolation it is not immenent and thus cannot occur this fall. That is what God's word tells us, not mine.
Anon
ReplyDeleteI watched some of the vid. He made the statement that the rapture is unexpected for the believer. This is not true. Scripture tells us BUT YE, BRETHREN, ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, THAT THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF.
Then he said that the next thing on the prophetic clock is the rapture. This is not true. Scripture says;
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thes 2
Then he said that one of the reasons that the rapture has to happen before the 7 years is because it helps his bride stay pure--because they are expecting His return at any time. I agree that expecting the rapture could occur at any time can help keep somebody keep pure, so can a lot of other things, but that does not mean that the rapture has to be pretrib.
That is like saying that since thinking it could rain at any moment makes you carry an umbrella so then it could rain at any moment. Circular reasoning.
That is all I could watch.
Stumbled across a very interesting teaching.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9DDH1PycBQ
This discusses whether or not we "should/will" know the signs of the times, the Daniel Timeline and how it lines up with God's jubilee years, Blood Moons and their frequency and signifigance to Israel, and overall asserts that the feast of trumpets is the beginning of the tribulation. Well worth the 44 minutes it takes to watch it ~Suzy Q
There is a lot of confusion on this site. The rapture can only be pre-trib. If you want full details and are willing to listen to a full teaching on it, please look up Pastor JD Farag at Calvary Chapel Kaneohe on YouTube. I believe it is called "Why the Rapture Must Be Pre-Trib" He explains it using history and the Bible better than anybody. Most importantly, he uses the Bible to back-up what he is teaching.
ReplyDeleteThere is a lot of confusion here about the anti-christ (con of perdition) and when he is revealed. he is reveals when he gets israel to sign the peave treaty, not at the abomination of desolation. This is made clear in Daniel, Ezekiel and Revealtion....also Matthew.
Please be bereans and search the scriptures, all of the scriptures, and see the promises God has for those who are His. Jesus loves His bride.
Also, study Jewish weddings and festivals and you will be able to easily piece it together.
Barbara
ReplyDeleteI was taught the pre trib view by the best, and taught it myself for for many years. But there were some things that just did not add up. When I took a look at what all of scripture taught there was only one theory that did not contradict all end times scripture--the pre wrath view.
I watched some of pastor J.D.'s video--he does give a very emotional and dramatic presentation but it did not line up with scripture as outlined in the 2nd comment above yours.
You are correct according to scripture the antichrist may be revealed at the signing of the peace treaty or it may be at the aboination of desolation and the peace treaty may be signed near the middle of the 70th week. I present the scriptural evidence for this in The Coming Epiphany.
I also have studied the feasts extensively and written about them in the same.
Suzy Q
ReplyDeleteTHX I will try to give it a view soon.
Barbara
ReplyDeleteBTW; In The Coming Epiphany I prove by scripture that the rapture is at the sixth seal--pre wrath.
The solution to this debate is simple: There IS no rapture. There NEVER will be and if you think there is going to be one you have been LIED to and you are a LIAR and there are no LIARS in the Kingdom.
ReplyDeleteYOU are those who will find themselves crying out "LORD, LORD....did we not prophesy in your name?" He will respond to you "I do not know you from wence you come"
In other words the position you have put yourself in...like the Angles who gave up their positions and estates....and the sin of Esau rejecting his birthright...you will not be known.
You have let your identity been stolen. If you are true Christian you have been grafted into the Family of God know as Israel. The Nation State of Israel is antichrist and the incorporated Church (denominational Christianity) is the False Prophet.
Come OUT of the Rapture Cult churches they are the Whore of Babylon and she will be burned.
If Elenin causes the earthquake of Rev. 12 it would not surprise me because no one knows the mind of God. We may not know the "day or hour" but we are told to watch and we will know the SEASON.
The teachings of the Rapture Cult are the "great falling away" and the return of Christ will come on them like a thief in the night. Where two are gathering in the field the one taken is DESTROYED, NOT RAPTURED!!
For those who have the ears to hear.
(correction) If Elenin causes the earthquake of Rev. 12 should be "Rev.16:18"
ReplyDeleteXen
ReplyDeleteGod's wrath is coming. God promised in His Word that the righteous will not be subject to His wrath. Therefore there must be a rapture.
Your beliefs are heretical and your name calling is inappropiate to say the least. I pray that God would rebuke you and deliver you from the deceptions that you have fallen into and open your eyes to the truth.