Wednesday, October 25, 2017

An End Times Conversation About The Rapture

Rapture, rapture ready, prewrath, sixth seal, blood moon, jesus, armageddon, revelation, day Lord, day Christ, end times, bible prophecy, pretribulation, day of the Lord, end of the world,

by William Frederick, M. Div.

Question: Do you believe the scriptures, God’s Holy Word, the Bible, are the final authority in all matters of doctrine?

Answer: Yes, of course I do.

Question: According to the scriptures below, is the rapture part of an event known as the Day of the Lord?

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1 Thes 4:15-5:2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2 Thes 2:1,2

Answer: Yes, I see that the rapture is part of the Day of the Lord.

Question: According to the scriptures below, what happens before the Day of the Lord begins?

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: Acts 2:20

Answer: The moon is turned to blood before the Day of the Lord begins.

Question: According to the scriptures below, when is the moon turned to blood?

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:12

Answer: The moon is turned to blood after the Sixth Seal is opened.

Statement: I therefore conclude that according to scriptures, the rapture, as an event of the Day of the Lord, must occur after the moon is turned to blood, which occurs after the Sixth Seal is opened.

Question: According to the scriptures below, what do people see after the Sixth Seal is opened?

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Answer: They see the Lord.

Question: From your knowledge of scripture, during the end times when do people see the Lord?

Answer: At the rapture and at Armageddon.

Question: Which one of the two is the passage above referring to?

Answer: The Sixth Seal does not involve Armageddon, so it would have to be the rapture.

Question: If the scriptures clearly teach and confirm that the rapture will occur after the Sixth Seal is opened, then why don’t you believe it?

Answer: __________________________.

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  1. William...Well said and boiled down with brevity....with sound doctrine.

    There are some sincere pretrib believers on other forums that just don't believe we are going through any tribulation...out of here before it starts. They keep moving the goal posts especially lately around the Rev 12 sign...saying we are out of here any day now.

    All I can think of is 2 Timothy 4:3-4 coming to past..." For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap unto themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

    Here you give an example of sound doctrine, but their itchy ears only have them congregate around teachers that preach what they want to easy way out of here. Any comments towards a 6th seal rapture is regarded as scoffing and unbelief.

    As they keep moving the goal posts, and we actually see the antichrist ruling on earth, I predict they will claim its a fake antichrist, a deception...because they believe the rapture has to happen before.

    Many of them will fall away, others will have a hard time not being prepared .

    1. You are absolutely correct. I think some Pastors and church goers actually in their heart doubt the pretrib theory and won't even consider the prewrath theory because of fear of rejection.

    2. I actually believe they will think the antichrist is God himself, with a true prophet, here to establish his kingdom, and that all you have to do to enter it is to accept him, worship him and his image, and receive his mark. Of course, doing that's actually the way to get kicked OUT of God's kingdom! There'll probably be a fake rapture before the tribulation as well, which will more than likely be the great deception that leads to the great falling away.

      Yes, this does indeed look like a fulfillment of said prophecy of turning unto fables. The reason why they do not wish to consider sound doctrine is for the same reason why scripture says they do-For their own lusts, because it "seems" better for pretrib to be true, because it means there's no tribulation to endure. That's the appeal of the theory, and probably why so many turn to it. It's not just the fear of rejection, it's the fear of having to go through the tribulation. Just like how Romans 1 says people doubt God because they don't WANT him to exist, the same can be said for many who doubt sound scripture of prewrath.

      "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

      22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

      23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

      24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

      25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."-Romans 1:21-25

      Notice any similarities?

    3. Great commentary, thanks for adding it in.

  2. I think the Bible's messages are in layers. Many things have already happened. Many things are spiritual analogies of our spiritual lives. I don't adhere to 'any' rapture doctrine. When the End comes we will all be changed. Whether that's your personal end or The End of time as we know it. More importantly than being concerned about when a rapture might happen or what time frame we are in, the Bible is true, "The WHOLE world lies in wickedness." Follow JESUS, listen to HIM. Stop being distracted.

    1. Follow Jesus listen to Him and stop being distracted that is good advice and Jesus tells us plainly in His Word the exact timing of the rapture, thus it is important--VERY IMPORTANT! If you do not listen to the scriptures and have a right view of the rapture it could place you in a very bad position.

      So saying you do not adhere to any rapture doctrine is akin to saying I do not hold to any Salvation doctrine etc. All doctrines are important and you must hold to what God tells us in scripture.

    2. Well in a sense, we, who are born again of the Holy Spirit have already been 'raptured' as we are seated in the heavenlies. Just waiting/working time it our own personal time or The End. I disagree about the view on rapture placing anyone in a bad position. CHRIST's salvation is so thorough. Years ago, when I used to celebrate xmas and eostre/easter, I knew not what I was doing. Did GOD still have me? You bet. I know it! Not just believe it. Surely believers 100, 500, 1000 years ago, were just as fervent and thought JESUS would return any minute. I am not a scoffer. What I am suggesting is maybe we have missed something. We are to be watchful and waiting at all times, not so much for a rapture, but for instruction from the LORD. To be ready to do HIS will for HIS purposes. I think its a bit haughty to suddenly 'get your house in order' just because maybe some things might be pointing to a rapture. Why not get ones house in order right now. And keep in order (the oil in the lamps). Believe me, I ask FATHER every day to save souls, give the gift of repentance and salvation and to bring the The End....ready for the new heavens and earth..the home of righteousness. I am VEXED in my spirit. Challenged as to how to pray. What we need is encouragement to Endure till the end. That is the hardest part! The older I get, the more evil I see/hear about, the older my flesh gets, it gets exhausting. Each day needs a measure of grace to endure. Each day needs a fresh wash of the Holy Spirit to rejuvinate the soul, to be a vessel for HIS purposes. Peace.

    3. Much of what you say is right on but even though we are spiritually seated with Christ in the heavens our bodies are still here on earth and we are called to live through what God allows to transpire.

      Would you rather go through Seals 1-5 with or without preparations? That is why your rapture theory matters.

    4. Ill answer that with a testimony. Years ago, when I first started looking at the prepping movement, I heard in my spirit, "I make you ready." Since that time, I've been through a lot of different life changes and I have seen HIM provide for each 'need' each time. One time I tried to prepare-safeguard some things only for them to be randomly stolen. Some of the stuff was found later. I know the LORD was showing me, "Whatever I want for you to have you will have it." We can trust FATHER fully for all things. Yes, there are still times I want to prep, times I doubt, times I even fear, but we are commanded to fear not. HIS people will go through all things HE has prepared for us to go through. It truly is a challenge to our flesh! truly let go. Peace

    5. Yes you are correct that God will provide--He always does, but that does not negate prepping.

      I am not going to discount what God is telling you to do personally--I do not Know God's specific plan for your life--maybe you will not be here when the bad times hit, thus it would make sense not to prepare. But in general if a Cat 5 storm was coming it would be prudent to prepare--food, water, batteries, board up windows, etc.

      As Bob Jones said; "God will not do for you what He has given you the power to do for yourself."

      Proverbs says go to the ant--they prepare their food in summer.

    6. We should be ready for the tribulation, and later rapture-We don't know when the tribulation will arrive, and once it does, the rapture will be imminent. We must prepare ourselves, and be like the wise virgins of Matthew 25:1-13 (Parable of the Ten Virgins), and not like the foolish ones. We have to do the preparation, God told us about this, and gave us the ability to prepare.

  3. Isaiah 26:19-21

    19 Your dead shall live;
    Together with my dead body they shall arise.
    Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
    For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
    And the earth shall cast out the dead.
    Take Refuge from the Coming Judgment
    20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
    And shut your doors behind you;
    Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
    Until the indignation is past.
    21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
    To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
    The earth will also disclose her blood,
    And will no more cover her slain.

    I think these scriptures also gives evidence that the rapture and the Day of the Lord occur together.

    1. Last night Perry Stone was a guest speaker at John Kilpatrick's church. He gave a very interesting end times teaching. Stone has always been known as believing in a pre-tribulation rapture, but his teaching last night showed that he may be changing his tune. He discussed how he believes that the power and force of the rapture itself may be what causes the start of the Day of the Lord. You might want to take a listen if utube church of his presence

    2. Thanks for sharing Robin, that is good news, many have been praying that the church would awaken.

  4. With an unprecedented 3rd aircraft carrier around Korea as of now, I would suspect major exchanges of firepower any day now.

    We will stomp Kim, but God only knows what this will lead into, but I can sure see this going nuclear and turning another page in bible prophesy.

  5. This subject continues to need clarification as the disparity of opinion amongst Christians demonstrates.
    I believe we need to keep reviewing the scriptures like Bereans, so we don't accept what the various denominations teach out of hand and fall into error.
    I worry like Mr.Frederich and others, that not understanding this vital information correctly (whom the apostle referred to as "those who are asleep") could cause many unsuspecting Christians to fall away when their faulty paradigm shatters.
    I want to share scriptures I've reviewed because I too care that my family out there understands.
    I prefer the word resurrection because it is most prevalent and avoids much of the confusion out there.
    1Cor.15 is the greatest treatment of the subject,among other things it specifies the timing...:51-54,"when the last trumpet is blown" it says that the Christians who are dead and than those who are alive will be raised with transformed bodies.
    Verse 23 says the same thing.
    !Thess.4:13-18 says the same thing.
    2Thess.2:3-4 shows that the Day of the Lord in question here cannot occur before the man of sin is revealed... pointing to Mr. Frederick's emphasis here...the sixth seal...the resurrection timing again.
    Here is a blessed scripture the Lord gave me some time ago when I struggled with this topic.
    2Cor.5:2-3 show that we cannot be spirits without bodies, but that we will put on new bodies.
    When you tie this to the aforementioned scriptures you can pull it all together.
    The Day of the lord occurs:
    -after the sixth seal...the signs and the man of sin is revealed
    -the dead and the living are raised after that seal
    -our new bodies are not magical new bodies, but rather our old ones are raised and transformed into bodies like Christ's
    This truth about our bodies can be verified by such passages as found in He.11.
    Verse :13 shows that these heroes of faith died without receiving the promised prize. Verse :35 shows that their hope was the resurrection. Verses 39 and 40 say again that the prize comes after we finish the race.
    There are more scriptures but I hope and pray I've helped and spurred on my brethren to live and die in the hope that these bible greats did!